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| Motionless meditation | |||||
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| Posted on Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:28 pm | |||||
derricktheone
Joined: 29 Jul 2006 |
And why should I have listened to you? That all makes sense to me MA but I think you're being too generalistic. I have done the 3 hour one pretty easily (was done 1st try) and know I could've done much more. Just because I haven't reached any stages of "Samadhi" doesn't mean I can't do it. (I've experienced some altered states of consciousness before) I don't think you are in a position to judge how much patience I have. "Samadhi" would obviously make it easier but how do you know you won't reach one of these states when attempting a long goal. My goal was for 12 hours and I'm confident when I attemp it, I will achieve it. P.S My back would not give out because I will either be lying down (does not mean I will fall asleep) or have somthing bracing myself. |
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| Posted on Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:02 pm | |||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
I see. I am used to meditation in an upward, sitting posture without the help of a chair or wall, which is really not comfertable for 24 hours if one does not get into a blissful state. Because I always see people around me meditate in such a posture as well, I was picturing you guys meditating for three hours in such a posture, my mistake. Lying down for three hours is not hard indeed. we do that every night usually  , and that piece of information makes things different. I do not associate lying down with meditation, but that is personal. I was not judging the amount of patiente you have, I was talking in general indeed and I was talking from what I have experienced with myself and others. I was not talking to you personally.
When attempting a long goal, it is indeed more likely to reach such a state of samadhi, that is, if you keep your body relatively still and the spinal cord relatively straight. Those two things seem to help alot. You sound like a very determined and somewhat experienced meditator, who likes to lie down, or use something to brace himself. All these aspects change alot of the things I took into consideration when writing that last post. I wish you goodluck with the 12 hour goal'. I am sure you'll make it. If you do, try it again sitting in a straightened posture, legs crossed and without braces. Try to feel the difference. I think you will have a completely different experience. You will either like it alot because of the alertness and sensations, or dislike it because it is harder to retain. I can recommend everyone to practice sitting meditation though. Takes more practice, but the results are deeper. In my experience. |
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| Posted on Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:13 pm | |||||
somefatguy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006 |
Derricktheone: Don't take what MA and I said so personally. And, goodluck with your goal. I'm gonna beat you!
MartialArtist: What?! For about a year I have been meditating laying down! Because when you first started this thread one asked if you can do it laying down. And you said yes with no problem. If I knew that laying down does not give the same results I would have been meditating sitting down. I can't believe this! I almost feel as if I wasted my time doing "five year old meditation." Well, now I will do both. But first, I need advice for meditating sitting cross-legged. 
-I have meditated once or twice sitting cross-legged. I must say, it hurts my back a lot. But isn't this a disadvantage because I have more weight in the front of my body? (I'm fat...) -Next question, do I have to keep my back straight up like a plank of wood? Because I thought that using your back muscles to keep your back straight would make it harder to get into deeper levels. Or can I slouch? -Next, just thinking about this...it doesn't make sense. Why does a position in which you meditate change anything? Is it because of the energy flow in your body or what? |
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| Posted on Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:15 am | |||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
Let me not be misunderstood here, I am not saying that meditation while lying down is wrong. Not at all. You have not wasted your time, but really, there is a change in atmoshphere or intention, attitude, when one meditatates lying down. It is a significant difference, yet very subtle and hard for me to describe.
- Whether your fat or not, should not matter so much. -At first it is going to feel very unnatural keeping the back straight, but eventually you will find it very relaxing and you can then maintain that posture. You should perhaps use a little pillow for your ass, a firm pillow, not a very soft pillow, but one that is steady and almost hard. If you do this, the angle in which your back relates to your legs, is somewhat more relaxed and makes it easier for you to straighten your spinal cord. Once you sit on the pillow,you should kind of push your belly to the front so it slightly feels as if your lower back is making a hollow shape, which is mostly nmot true. It is actually straight, but it may feel as if it is kind of hollow because we are not used to sit straight up. Push your shoulders a little backwards and let them relax in that position, pull your chin a little inwards, just a little bit. Imagine that you are being stretched out form the inside of your spinal cord, as if a thread is pulling you staright up at your crown area. Eventually, this will help you in reaching deeper levels. But if this doesn't feel right to you, then try meditation in a chair or something, and if thats not fine also, then keep lying down. But preferably sit straight up without braces, or at least, sit straight up .
- The position in which you meditate, does in fluence several things. If you keep your spinal cord straight, you will automatically get into an alert, conscious state. Besides that, the energy can flow freely through the most important channel there is. Physically speaking this is the spinal cord, energetically speaking, this is called the sushumna channel. It is the main channel for alot of energy and information being passed along the entire body. Staying akert and keeping this straight is a great advantage. You will notice it after only a few times of practicing a straight position (you can also practice it while standing, no-one has to notice) that it gives you enormous strength and alertness, simply by taking on the right posture. What happens when you lie down and do nothing for a longer period of time, not trying to meditate either? Not much right? I fall a sleep, or I lie awake thinking or not thinking or something, but nothing happens. What happens when you sit straight up for a longer period of time (1/2 - 2 hours), legs crossed, spinal cord straight...without trying to meditate or somehting? You will feel your body from the inside out as if it is becoming transparent. This is actually difficult to explain, but it feels as if the body becomes transcedent. Your body becomes lighter and you feel enormous space somehow, inside your self. As your attention grows, so does this feeling. You can even feel energy-centres revolving and you don't have to do a damn thing for it. It just happens in this posture. Meditation comes automatically when posture is perfected. Even Samadhi (superconsicous state) might just come to you if you sit entirely still in a good posture. Why do you think all the saints and all the buddha statues etc are being shown in this position. It is not for show, it has a scientific ground which I cannot explain that well. It takes more practice for the physical body, but it sure has its benefits in the long run. Especially when you want to continue to advanced meditations and reach samadhis, I believe it is important that you learn how to sit in a straight position. The body should be no obstacle and should not be a nuisance when you are meditating. |
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| Posted on Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:30 am | |||||
somefatguy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006 |
Whoa, thanks MartialArtist. I think I have another question though.
My legs. If one is on top of the other, then my blood circulation is cut off. What then? Am I doing it wrong? And yes, I have always noticed the stereotypical meditation position, I just never understood why they do it in that position. Ermmm, I don't have a hard pillow either. If I can't get this right, I'm moving to Amsterdam! Then you could help me out more effeciently. |
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| Posted on Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:36 pm | |||||
Rahmid
Joined: 14 Apr 2006 |
I can vouch for what MA is discribing. There is a huge, but subtle difference in sitting meditation. In my Yoga practice back in the day with my friend/guru/teacher/pal we would warn up with meditation sitting to get our minds focused and breathing pattern fixed, then do the asanas and then end in sanana(or corpse pose, on you back) and meditate and cool down. Very different, large contrast in my opinion. I feel that lying down meditations and sitting are valuable in thier own rights, but sitting is a different level. Lying down meditations are more quieting and relaxed. Like there is more enphasis on the body or something, whilst sitting is like and explosion of alertness in the mind, kinda. Like things just pop out at you. Cool stuff happens. Dont really know how to induce the cool stuff, but different things happen all the time and it just seems like your mind was cracked wide open and things are just perfectly simple for a while.
My $0.02 Rahmid |
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:08 am | |||||
Damien
Joined: 28 May 2006 |
So, I went for it the other night before I went to sleep. It was really nice. There was about a 10-15 minute range where I don't remember, I think because I had a constant blank-state of mind. I only pulled off 30 minutes though, I was getting too tired. I'm gonna try again for an hour. After I started moving around though, I asked myself why I stopped meditating. This form of meditation is really relaxing. I like it a lot. | ||||
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:01 am | |||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
Well depends, if it really becomes a disturbing factor and the blood veins are really cut off (unlikely) then you should try a different pose.If you have a firm pillow or something small to sit on, you can then lay one foot under your anus area, and the other foot right in front of that foot under your anus area. For this, you need to push the knies outward alittle, so you end up with a wide spreaded posture. Or you could try for the Ardha Padmasana, which is the half-lotus pose: http://www.isolafelice.info/images/foto_varie/ardha_39.jpg Your blood stream is not really cut of if you do this one. Do some stretching before you start. |
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:25 pm | |||||
somefatguy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006 |
Hmmm, yes, I see.
More problems!! I tried cross-legged meditation two times recently. First off, it really really hurts my back. I could only hold for 5 minutes. It just doesn't seem right...even though they always say "No pain, no gain." But pain in the back is a lot more to worry about, because it is such an important part of our bodies. Another thing is that I shake. I can't keep absolutely still compared to lying down. Almost every second that goes by I move in very small increments. I have tried many different ways of doing it too. Can I meditate against a wall? (Even though I tried that and it didn't help much.) All and all, I need some serious help with this. |
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:44 pm | |||||
derricktheone
Joined: 29 Jul 2006 |
No pain, no gain refers to being sore the day after working out. Pain during pretty much anything else isn't good. 2nd your most likely shaking because you're struggling to hold that position. You're not comfortable with it yet so it will take time to get used to. I have the same problem as you though. My legs fall asleep when doing either lotus position. |
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:29 pm | |||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
I see, thats why I said 24 hours is near to impossible for most, I was (mis) assuming that you were meditating in a sitting position. Yes, the back will hurt and you won't be able to sit still, unless either your body is trained to perfection, or you are capable of reaching some enlightening states of consicousness.
If I may be so free to advise you (both?), I'dd say that you should meditate on your backs and keep doing that, and also, if you feel the need to, practice sitting straight up, but seperate that practice from your meditation sessions while lying down. When you want to chill and meditate, don't force your body, just lie down and enjoy, else it will only result in struggle in body and mind., which is the opposite from meditation's goal. The falling asleep of the body, is not that strange, even for trained disciples. The difference is, that trained disciples totally emerge themselves into whatever they meditate upon, so they lose not only their sense of time and space, but also their sense of self. When they will thesmselves out of meditation again, depending on the amount of time spent in meditation, their bodies will take some time to get started again. I heard that after a 24 hour meditation (I never done that before) it takes about 20 minutes to get the body moving again. You have to move real slow, your body becomes completely inert, like a pile of stiff wooden planks. EDIT: And SFG: I would not recommend using a wall, because you'll then automatically stop keeping your spinal cord straight. If you practice, do it without a wall, and without forcing it also! Sitting still comes automatically. You should not worry too much about sitting still or not, you can even go with the flow of your body so to say and make little, gentle, divine circling movements or something. That is very relaxing and sometimes blissful even. That being said, lying down meditating can also be very blisful in the end, so don't think you have never meditated for real before or anything of that matter. Eventually the posture doesn't matter, but in the beginning and also in the beginning of the advanced stages, it helps alot to get to these higher states. |
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:20 pm | |||||
derricktheone
Joined: 29 Jul 2006 |
Good post. Thanks for the help. | ||||
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| Posted on Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:48 pm | |||||
Rahmid
Joined: 14 Apr 2006 |
So how can you train to withdraw your senses? I have control over my nose for one reason or another, I just kinda thougt it and it happened...yeah...? lol
And once when i was REAL little i thought it would be cool to be deaf for a while and it happened for a few seconds, but never again. So how do I do this for long periods in meditation? thanks Rahmid |
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| Posted on Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:27 am | |||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
Good question.
Withdrawing the senses is, in the beginning, a little tricky, but in the end becomes so clear for you that you can simply choose when and where you want to withdraw the senses from the outside stimulants. As you know, the senses are the vehicles through which the mind operates and interacts with the outside world. Without the senses, the mind does not get stimulants at all besides the internal thinking only. What we need to accomplish if we want to get ourselves in for example a state of Samadhi, is to learn how to totally emerge ourselves (our consicousness) in the object or idea, or void that we meditate on. This cannot be accomplished if the mind keeps getting distracted by things that happen in the outside world. If you are in meditation, and your mom walks in your room, you get distracted and may need to start all over again. Same goes for the signs of the body. If you feel a little pain in your body, your sense tells this to your mind, and the mind stops to focus internally, and gets attracted by the pain in the body (This is why it is beneficial to have a flexible body). Pain in the body is external just as much as the mother that comes into your room. Your body belongs to the outside world. So what we need to accomplish, is a one-pointed mind that is capable of retaining a certain focus, without struggle and without getting distracted by whatever happens outside of what your focus is on. Eventually this becomes very easy, however, in the beginning, you will need to make things more interesting and attractive on the inside, then the outside can be at that moment. What I mean is, when you are in meditation and you notice you are getting distracted by for example two people arguing outside in front of your house, immediately recognise this as a stimulant that comes through the senses. Accept it the way it is, and don't let the mind be curious to go and take a look. Instead, make the internal world more interesting and attractive for your mind, by visualizing interesting things or asking questions about the object of your observation/meditation. Then you will notice that the mind forgets about the argument and starts to contemplate once more about the object or idea of your meditation. Practice this for a longer period of time, and your mind will be capable of letting the entire outside world be as it is, and explore the inner world to its deepest levels. You will still some times notice the outside world, for example an argument in front of your house, but you'll have the immediate choice to keep your focus one-pointed. So what happens in Samadhi? What is it.. Once this one-pointed focus is established and 'perfected', the individual part of your consciousness (what we often refer to as: I, or me) will then become absorbed by whatever it is you meditate upon. This is the true meaning of "Becoming one with." Simply because only in this state, are we actually the object of meditation. Literally. Our consicousness takes the form of/emerges with that object. When in this state, sense of time/space and self is lost. Hence: we don't notice what happens in the outside world unless we subconsciously want it to. What do I mean? For example you are in a meditation class with a teacher and some other students. You are all planning to get in samadhi, but you don't want to be left behind once the class is over right? When the time is over, the teacher will ring a Gong. Normally you would not mind or even hear this gong, depending on what it is you meditate upon and in what state of samadhi you are. But now, even when in samadhi, your subconsicous will react to this gong because it knows that you want to stop along with the rest of the class. So you then get a signal that it is time to get out of samadhi. So even though you lost your sense of self, you can still get out of samadhi at anytime you like. Don't worry .
So to return to your question Rahmid:
By staying alert when in meditation, don't daydream and consider that as meditation, but stay alert and focussed and observe everything that happens. If you can do this, you will be alert enough to recognise when an external stimulant is stimulating you . Acknowledge this when it happens, and then return inward, don't allow the mind to get distracted unless it creates a big inner struggle if you don't let it get distracted. We don't want to create struggle, we want to create inner peace and bliss. So you acknowledge the fact that something is stimulating your senses. let this be and don't get curious, instead retrun the mind inward, or, if the external stimulant is too exciting for your mind, then create somethinbg inside which is even more interesting or requires a challange for your mind, for example by asking some interesting questions about the object of meditation. The essense is that you are capable of keeping your attention inward, even when things annoy your senses around you. Once you can do this very well or perfect even, you will soon experience superconscious states.
Goodluck. |
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| Posted on Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:25 pm | |||||
Rahmid
Joined: 14 Apr 2006 |
Thanks, super informative!!
What do you mean by superconsious states? Rahmid |
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